Saturday, 2 July 2011

Garmin Zumo 660 Motorcycle GPS / Sat Nav Review


I bought my Garmin Zumo 660 eighteen months ago and after riding with it for 21,000 miles on my tour of the USA and using it extensively across Europe on tours in France, Belgium, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia and Spain, I feel it is time I presented my thoughts on how well it performs.

Overall, some aspects of the Zumo are really good and beat the competition hands down, but sadly in other areas, it is simply dreadful. It is a real shame that what could be a fantastic device is ruined by some aspects that should be a lot better than they actually are.

I have looked at and evaluated the Garmin Zumo 660 in ten key areas and given my brief thoughts on each area below. I have scored the performance of the Zumo out of five, with the scoring system being as follows.

1 = Unacceptable
2 = Poor
3 = Reasonable
4 = Good
5 = Excellent


Looks / quality / feel. Points awarded = 5. When you first open the box and pick up the unit, it looks and feels just how it should. The build quality looks very good and the unit looks superb.

User manual. Points awarded = 1. When I first received the Zumo I briefly wrote about my first impressions of it on this blog. I wrote that there was no manual in the box. Finding it online was very difficult and needing a copy, I eventually found one and had to print one myself on my home printer. This was not a great start to my Garmin experience.

Mounting the device. Points awarded = 5. This was very easy and the mounts look good. After thousands of miles using the unit, the mount has worked superbly.

Loading the mapping software. Points awarded = 1. One of the really great things about the Garmin Zumo 660 is the ability to do your route planning on a computer and then transfer those routes to the unit. Being able to do this planning on a computer rather than on the unit itself is a huge benefit, if like me, your trips are long and complex with many places you want to stop and see. However, getting to the point where you can do this is an absolute nightmare. In order to prevent copying of the maps from computer to computer and unit to unit, they have locking codes. Unlocking the maps by entering these codes should be straightforward, but it turned out to be one of the most complex things I think I have ever had to do with any software, ever. Due to the lack of any clear instructions on how to unlock the maps, I had to call Garmin Support twice before I could even get the maps to work. This is completely unacceptable and very nearly caused me to abandon the Zumo before I had even used it once.

Route planning on a PC. Points awarded = 3. The fact that route planning can be done on a computer is perhaps the best feature about this GPS / Sat Nav. For my 21,000 ride in the USA, having to do the route planning on the unit itself would have been a nightmare and this is where Garmin have the competition beaten hands down. This in itself is probably the best reason to use a Garmin Zumo. You can use just about any GPS / Sat Nav for simple journeys where there is a single destination, but for anything more complex, you need something different where route planning on a PC is possible and the Zumo is great for this. However, I have only awarded 3 points for this and that is because the software itself, called Mapsource, is distinctly average. It is clunky to use, not at all intuitive and I am surprised that Garmin still supply it. Compared with modern, well developed software, Mapsource seems out-of-date and not at all user friendly.

Device route calculation. Points awarded = 4.5. In most circumstances, the route calculation the unit carries out seems to be very good. Okay, the unit does take a long time to find the satellites when first turned on, but that is just a little frustration compared to how well the calculation seems to happen.  The calcuation is fast too, including both working out the route when first entered and recalculation if you take a different road to the one the unit expects you to. My only slight reservation is when in the USA and riding with my friend Paul, we had identical units, with identical map software loaded (the exact same version) and identical custom routes planned, but the two units calculated different routes. We never got to the bottom of this, but it did seem very odd.

Use while riding. Points awarded = 5. I cannot fault the operation of the unit in any way. The screen is bright and clear.  Use even when wearing riding gloves in excellent and the options and features all worked fantastically well.

Reliability. Points awarded = 3. Almost all of the time I have used a Zumo, the reliability has been fantastic. However, occasionally, the unit will turn off for no reason. Most of the time this isn’t a problem, but on two occasions, I couldn’t turn it back on. One of these times, the problem was solved by removing and replacing the battery, but the other time was much worse, needing a telephone call to Garmin support to fix the problem, plus my laptop to download a fix. If I hadn’t had my laptop with me, the problem could not have been fixed. This turning off problem seems to have gone away, presumably solved by one of the software upgrades I have done with Garmin support (Garmin have to talk you through these, they don’t happen automatically).

Value for money. Points awarded = 2. The Zumo isn’t cheap, but there is a much worse roblem that means you may end up spending much more money than you need to because of Garmin’s policies. This has happened to me twice now. When you buy a new Zumo you get the maps for the country you are in on a disc. If you buy it in the USA, you get the North America Maps and if you but it in the UK, you get the European maps. However, if you buy additional maps (like I have) there are three ways of doing this and two of them will lead to problems if you want to plan your routes on a computer. DO NOT BUT NEW MAPS BY DOWNLAODING THEM AND DO NOT BUY THEM ON A DATA CARD, because with either route, you cannot use those maps for route planning and you will have to buy exactly the same maps again in order to be able to use them in the Mapsource software. ONLY buy them on a disc! Shockingly, Garmin do not make this clear and when you telephone them to complain, they say it is your problem and you bought the maps on the wrong media.

The CD version of the maps can be used for both the route planning and it can be transferred to your unit, but by downloading or buying the maps on an SD card, you can only use the maps in the unit itself. This is dreadful bad practice and Garmin should hang their heads in shame due to it. There is another reason why I have awarded only 2 points in this category and this relates to me needing to replace my Garmin unit. I failed to properly fix my unit in its mount and the unit fell of my bike at 70mph and was smashed in the process. This was totally my fault, but what happened next also appalled me. I purchased a new unit and tried to use my existing maps in my new unit, only to be told by Garmin this is not possible. They fix the use of the maps to a particular unit and even in my case, where my unit was broken, I could not transfer my existing maps to the new unit. I therefore have perfectly usable maps that are registered to my Garmin account that I cannot use. This is nothing short of a rip off and again Garmin should hang their heads in shame. My view is, don’t expect to be treated fairly by Garmin as this will not happen.

Customer service. Points awarded = 2. I have mixed views about the Garmin customer service. They have a call centre in the UK and if you have a problem, don’t even bother trying to call them as all of the times I have tried it, I found them to be totally useless and on a number of occasions, I knew more about their product than they did.  On another occasion, they simply referred me back to the Garmin website to get the help they couldn’t provide. However, Garmin customer support in the USA is much, much better and I have always had a really good experience when I telephone them. I now am happy to pay for an international telephone call from Europe to the USA because they are so much better.

That was until recently, when I ran across another of Garmin’s policies regarding maps. It is a complex issue, but essentially Garmin told me to buy new maps to replace the ones I couldn’t use when I broke my existing unit when it fell from the bike. Having been burned by Garmin before, I specifically asked how I should buy a new European map so that I could use it both for route planning and on my new unit. They told me to download the maps and I did so, only to find I could use these only on the unit and not on my laptop for route planning. After a huge amount of argument, they accepted they were wrong and said they would send the maps in the correct format (on a CD) but they would only post to an address in the USA and they don’t have the capability to send a package to Europe!!! I provided them with a USA address form where the CD could be forwarded, but the CD never arrived and despite trying to contact Garmin a few times by e-mail, they are not responding. The Garmin customer service therefore ranges from excellent at times, to appalling. Sadly it is most often appalling.

Conclusion. Overall points awarded = 3. The average score from all of the categories above is just 3 points. Despite having a potentially fantastic product, my overall experience of the Garmin Zumo 660 is no better than reasonable. For the long trips I often make on my motorbike, the Zumo is still the best product I have found, but I use it reluctantly and will swop to another manufacturer as soon as something better comes along. Or Garmin coud just fix the many problems they have and change into a really great organisation.  Garmin really must do better.

35 comments:

Charlie6 said...

Great review Gary, my own experience with Garmin's software update process and their customer service reflect yours. I'll not be buying Garmin again. Mine was an older unit but still...you'd expect their flagship product to provide better overall satisfaction.

dom


Redleg's Rides

Colorado Motorcycle Travel Examiner

mq01 said...

thank you, great info. i expect a certain ease of use and/or customization, as well as simplicity. this info helps me greatly. im looking forward to hearing of better brands.

Rex J. Covington said...

Thanks Gary for the awesome review!

I do have to agree on all of what you said. I also own the Garmin Zumo 660 and have had many problems with Garmin myself.

On the Mounting, it works very well, but the only thing it is missing is a locking device to prevent it from getting stolen.

OMG! Loading the Mapping software is a Nightmare! Having to have your computer connected to their web site just to put in the serial numbers is crazy!

Two nights ago I did update my software by buying the download and when I installed it (It took over an hour) it did ask me if I wanted to also download the map to my computer for use with their map software. So I was able to use the new updated map on both my GPS & My computer. BTW I would have bought the DVD if I had read this blog first.

Charlie6, & mq01,

As bad as Garmin is, I have not found a brand that is better than Garmin. The one thing Garmin does better that the other brands is the ability to plan your route on your computer and upload then to your GPS and share your routes with others.

Gary, Thanks again for the great review, Love your blog! keep up the great work.

Rex

Jack Riepe said...

Dear Gary:

I have an older Garmin, as I subscribe to the theory that no electronic device should wear out until the plastic degrades. What I have discovered is:
a) Garmin is not interested in developing a cradle to the grave relationship with customers. Their overall attitude is, "We got your money so fuck you."
b) Garmion will survive on the cleverness of their product, inspite of their poor people skills.
c) Unless, of course, a company like Apple steps in to build an intuitive GPS, that links to a Mac, supported by Apple-type customer service.

I intend to buy a Zumo in the future, but I dread having to call Garmin for anything... And since I am used t the "Click, Install," Apple-type approach to life, the exasperating map-download ordeal provided by Garmin will probably keep me from using the unit to its full potential.

Fondest regards,
Jack/reep
Twisted Roads

Geoff James said...

Gary,

Excellent review! I have an older Garmin (76CX)which I use for the bike. Now with respect to Mapsource, I find it pretty easy to use when doing detailed route planning from a PC, BUT!!! I downloaded an updated version of mapsource for NZ and it was so slow and clunky that I went back to my old version. Saw a lot of adverse comments on the 'net about it. I now use the free maps of NZ produced by Garmin users over here as the updating is almost instantaneous following road changes etc.

We have the latest Garmin Nuvi for the car which came with lifetime updates. No complaints about its operation although as you might expect, map updates only come along every 6 months or so.

RichardM said...

Thank you for the review. We have a couple of Garmins and a TomTom. Due to all the map hassles with Garmin, we got the TomTom with lifetime map updates. I still use the Garmin 60CSX on the bike since it's waterproof and haven't had a single issue with it. Maybe because I don't rely on it or Mapsource for routing information.

Given a choice between the two, I still prefer the Garmin and was wondering what folks thought of the moto-specific models.

SonjaM said...

Thanks for the write up. I had recently thought about upgrading my current stone-age Garmin Nuvi 360 (I guess it is about five years old now). But now you make me want to wait until Apple gives us something user-friendly and intuitive, like all their other stuff.

Doug said...

Gary,

I agree with you on all points except the map downloading. Maybe it makes a difference if you're buying maps for a foreign country, dunno. I've downloaded upgrades for road maps and topo maps for the USA, installed them on my GPS units, and had no problem using them all in Mapsource.

Beyond that, I usually do my planning in MS Streets & Trips which now exports it's way-points and such in .GPX files which you can then open in Mapsource and move to the GPS. A bit clunky but less so that doing route planning in Mapsource itself.

For as long as consumer level GPS units have been on the market, it's amazing that no one is doing a proper job of making one that is easy to use and has full set of features.

Gary France said...

Charlie6 / Dom – I wouldn’t buy Garmin again except unbelievably and despite all the problems, I still think Garmin make the best currently available product. It is such a shame that what should be a great GPS is ruined by poor management and processes.

mq01 – There are better brands, Tom Tom for example, but their GPS units are not as comprehensive as Garmin.

Rex – You hit the nail on the head – the mapping software and the unlock codes nonsense is ridiculous. I nearly gave up with my Garmin unit before I had even used it. You are also spot on with what you say about other brands. Sad, isn’t it?

Jack – a) agreed. b) agreed. c) agreed It seems we agree! As soon as somebody brings out something better, I will cast the Zumo and embrace a better product. Lets hope we don’t have to wait too long.

Gary France said...

Geoff – The map updates seem to work fine with Garmin and it getting them onto the unit itself is quite straightforward. It is when you want to use the same maps to plan a route on your computer that it all starts to un-ravel. The instructions for this are non-existent, the unlocking codes process so complex and the software itself is so poor, that this makes the whole thing laughable.

Richard – I think you are right, as most of my problems have been associated with Mapsource. The unit itself is pretty good and I too still prefer the Garmin Zumo to Tom Toms bike specific models.

Sonja – Unless you want to do complex route planning on a computer, I would stick to what you already have, and wait for Apple to solve all the problems and to develop something that actually is a pleasure to use.

Doug – Maybe the difference is down to the fact that I do my route planning on a computer before transferring it to the unit. When I have used just the unit for route planning, it works much better. I will try MS Streets & Trips – thanks for the suggestion. I 100% agree with your final paragraph. As soon as someone actually cracks this as makes a simple to use GPS, they will surely steal the market.

Geoff James said...

Gary,
Leaving lousy Garmin support out of the equation, I find MapSource pretty easy to use for planning a detailed route. I'll send you an email in a day or two with some screen dumps of the process to see if there's a radical difference in the way that you plot your route on the computer and transfer it to your unit compared with the way I do it.

motoroz said...

Love the way you broke down your thoughts. Great insights and very useful. I also like the fact that you have used it for good period of time and a lot of miles. You have put it through the test and your experience with the device is authentic. Great review.

Gary France said...

Geoff – Thanks for the offer, but after planning many routes in Mapsource over many thousands of miles, I am pretty sure I have worked out how to do just about everything. What I find wrong with the software is how you have to do it. Take planning a new route for example, between two waypoints. First create the two waypoints on your map, then click Edit ; New Route. Ok so far. The END point is highlighted, so you click on Insert Waypoint and select the end point that you want to go to. Then another END point is highlighted and you are immediately confused – two end points??? What about the start point? Okay, so you realise the software is wrong and guess which is meant to be the end point and which is meant to be the start point.

Another gripe – the ‘Find Places’ search system is rubbish. Very often, despite knowing the exact name of somewhere, the Mapsource system won’t find it, even though I know what the address is, of for example a hotel, because I have checked it on the hotels website. This has happened to me many times and the best solution I have found? Ignore the Mapsource search facility and go straight to Google Maps instead, find where you are looking for (in seconds) and using the Google map as a guide, find the location on Mapsource simply by looking at the two maps and comparing them. I have done this countless times in Mapsource.

Next, transferring the route to your unit. Simple, as you just connect via a USB cable, hit the little symbol at the top of the Mapsource screen and it transfer. Disconnect your unit , replace the rear cover, turn it on and WHAT??? Where is my route? You go to “Custom Routes” and it isn’t there. You search around, repeat the transfer a few times, telephone Garmin and they tell you despite the route being in your unit you cannot see it, because you haven’t transferred the data from one part of the units memory to another. WTF? So you find out in “My Data” how to “import” the data you have already imported (none of this is mentioned in the manual) and then the system starts to recalculate the route, but hangs up. Why has it hung up? Simple – because you the user were stupid enough to try to do this indoors where the unit cannot see the satellites and after trying to find a satellite it gives up and hangs up the route calculation that is still happening (because its a long route). Trouble is, the screen simply says it is still calculating the route and gives no indication the unit has frozen. Solution? Turn the unit off, restart it and repeat the exercise a few times and watch it repeatedly freeze. Then relaise that if you stand outside it doesn’t freeze! So in future you learn to do your importing outside so the unit can multi task and find a satellite while calculating the route. Simple really, but why don’t they tell you this in the manual. Wait a minute, I forgot, there is no manual in the box! When you do manage to find a manual online, it doesn’t even mention these sorts of things.

I have found out how to get around these problems and I think I am quite good now at finding fixes to Garmins problems. Does that make me happy – NO. As the saying goes from some guy I read about in NZ, it is Utter Bollocks!!

I could go on...... but I won’t.

Gary France said...

Oz – Thanks. I know the product quite well and have used it extensively for all my recent bike trips, probably about 28,000 miles in the last year! I am currently so angry with Garmins lack of customer service, I have written to Clifton Pemble, the CEO at gamin to express my frustration. If I get a reply I will publish my letter and his response on my blog. I am very interested to hear what he might have to say, that is assuming of course that I get a reply....

Geoff James said...

Gary
Hmmmm.... now that's REALLY interesting because creating a route is nothing like your description!!

I will totally agree with you on the Find Places function though.

Also, once I've done the transfer to my older 76CX Garmin, I simply go to the Route menu and there it is waiting for me to use!

The mystery deepens!

bluekat said...

Nice review. I'm still stubbornly holding out on moving up from paper maps to GPS. But one of these days I'll have to give in. Even some of the features you mention are news to me.

irondad said...

I bought a Zumo 550 when they came out because they were specifically designed for the rigors of motorcycling. I've been very happy with it. The mount that came with it was motorcycle specific and allows me to lock the unit in place.

I wondered about upgrading but it looks like I'm not missing much.

In my case I live within 20 miles of one of Garmin's manufacturing facilities and they are a business customer of mine. Customer hasn't been a problem for me but mine is a unique situation!

Great review. I found it very helpful.

Gary France said...

Geoff – Hmmmm indeed. No doubt there are different ways of creating a route, but no doubt they essentially all do the same thing. When I transfer a simple route to the unit, I agree with you, it is there ready to be use, but if it is complex, or long, or there are a few routes (say for each day) within the same file, you have to re-import them using my data.

bluekat – Paper maps vs GPS is very much a personal preference as well. I carry both and use both for different purposes. If I want to look at the whole route I want to take say on a particular day, then I use paper. If I am simply travelling from A to B, then I sometimes use paper maps. If I am touring and want to stop at many places along the way, or if I have never ridden in a particular area, then I always use GPS. The roads systems in the USA vs other places are quite different, for example, in the USA, you can travel from one city to another, over say 200 miles and just use a few roads – say 10. In some countries in Europe, the same distance journey might involve using 20, 30, 40 or more roads and a GPS is then very handy.

Irondad – Sometimes upgrading can be a retrograde step. I am like lots of being who believe in the saying ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’. The same applies to technology, where very often sticking with what works for you is often better than upgrading to get all those new features you sometimes don’t really need.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the review, have all the problems you have. Bitterly disappointed in the total lack of it being user friendly, total lack of competent Garmin support. Ridiculously complicated to use basecamp for Routes etc. Can use it but I shouldn't have to do a PHD in programing to reach its full potential. Struggles to be value for money at that price

Gary France said...

Anonymous – It seems we are in agreement about just about everything to do with Garmin. It is such a shame as it should be a great product but is poor in so many areas.

beegee said...

Great review, that's just what I was looking for : a review written by an non-commercial heavy user who knows what he is talking about !

Poor anyway that the best one gets only 3/5...
I guess that nowadays there is much more possible at the moment ... but , for a specific reason , they don't use it to make the best product ever... :-(

I hope they will not wait untill a chinese manufacturer will do that at a price ... 150 € ... ;-))

Gary France said...

beegee – Thanks, I am pleased that you found the review helpful. It is a shame that Garmin have got so close to having a really good product, but it is spoiled by just a few problems.

Anonymous said...

Greetings. It seems the last post here was Feb 2012, and now it is July 2012. Does anyone know if ANY of these bugs have been fixed? I am presently in the market for a GPS system and have always used Garmin in the past - should I pull the trigger on this unit or what? Who would really pay almost a grand for this mysterious 770? Holy shikes!

If anyone knows if they have improved in ANY way possible please let me know, or direct me to the next best thing! Thanks much !

Rob said...

Rob (Australia). bought a Garmin Zumo 660 mid 2012. From the start it had problems with erroneous directions and sudden track reversal. Eventually locked up (removed batt.) but repeatedly locked up. Numerous emails to Garmin for help.Re-set procedure recommended but didn't help. Several further requ. for help - response just repeated from different tech officer - use re-set!! Absolutely useless people!! Returned unit to dealer who returned it to Garmin. Recently received it back as a "Refurbished Unit" No accompanying note whatsoever. Now trying it to see if it remains reliable.
Garmin service is not poor - it's non-existant!! Can't really comment on the performance of the unit as it never ever worked properly.

Gary France said...

Anon and Rob – Sadly the gremlins in the 660 are very bad and I agree, the customer service from Garmin is shockingly bad outside of the US, but remarkably good there. I appreciate this post is now quite old, so things may have improved by now.

Anonymous said...

Gotta agree Garmin LACKS customer service AND they fail to support their products as they should. I purchased a $800 unit which they decided NOT TO SUPPORT ON ANY LEVEL about 2 years after my purchase !! $800 down the drain !! I too was screwed by Garmin with their map policies. I too hate the damned ads! I will NEVER BUY ANOTHER GARMIN I will use my smartphones , old phones, stolen phones etc before I buy garmin trash again. Google maps is a much better solution and Osmand and Mapdroyd are such a better value , are FREE, and use NO DATA so the old phone comment I made is correct and practicle !! garmin , say bye bye, we'll use Google and get updates maps almost daily as well as traffic , route planning etc all FOR FREE USING OLD PHONES IF NEED BE OR THE OPPORTUNITY ARRIVES !! Thanks for forcing me to find so many better solutions than your whored ad filled product!! Bill

Anonymous said...

Thank you for saving me buying one of these.i was so close to getting one but I can do without tech stuff going wrong and being treated like a dork by customer services.

Gary France said...

Bill – It sounds like your experience has been worse than mine. I did manage to fluke my way through loading the new mapping software, called Basecamp although I am not sure how I managed to do that. The new software itself is appallingly bad and not at all intuitive. Garmin have somehow managed to go from having software that was a nightmare to load, to having software that is ridiculously complicated to use. Having said that, I did manage to plan a route for a recent road trip through the Alps and while planning the route on my computer was awful, the unit did perform almost flawlessly during the ride.

Gary France said...

Anonymous – I contact Garmin customer support only as a last resort. I try to find other ways of resolving any issues before calling their number. About a month ago I wrote to Garmin, but I am still yet to hear back. It is such a shame, as they have a product that is nearly very good, but it has so many rough edges, it makes it very difficult to use.

Anonymous said...

Having used the compatition the tomtom rider I have to say the Zumo beats it hands down. The tomtom connects to my scarla rider when it feels like it, and I hardly get voice input from it. The Zumo is spot on where that's concerned. I admit their instructions are hopeless but tomtom isn't much better. I have also found that tomtom equipment is built to a budget, ( shoddy). You pay top dollar and get nothing!. I purchased a motorcycle mount base £50 and that's just what I got, no wire, no mounting, just the base that attaches to the rider. At least with garmin you get what you pay for.
I found it easier to load a map strait from the mini sd card strait to the zumo via the hook up wire ( going from a two gig card with maps loaded on it to a new 8gig card. And loaded my music the same way. It worked a treat. I will do the same with the North America maps.
If you purchase maps you may find it easier to put them on a CD then transfer them via the USB lead strait to the zumo and its SD card.
I had a tomtom rider two before the rider pro that filled up with water so I presumed the pro would be a better bet, how wrong I was.
All I can say is it may be expensive but it is a far better and more reliable system than its competitor.

Cheers

Martin

Anonymous said...

I bought a zumo 660 back in very late 2009, and it took me less than 2 years to switch to a TomTom Urban Rider.

I recalled the zumo 660 UI being very intrusive, and always pestering you to be "safe" whilst driving/riding. Of course, it isn't terribly safe when you are concentrating on working around the intrusive UI whilst driving, is it?

It also suffered from a very slow refresh; by the time it finished either calculating the route or refreshing (presumably using most of the available processor power to display all those fancy 3D drawings) you would miss the turn, and all 10 others next to it that were available.


I recently bought a zumo 390LM and now I'm wondering how I'll go with it, having read all these recent horror stories about Garmin's support.

It took me almost 20 minutes to figure out how to add an item to the favourites list on the 390LM.

To be continued...

Anonymous said...

There was an issue about using the pre-loaded maps on an SD chip with the trip planning software on the computer. I've always found that it is possible to use the maps if the device is on and plugged into the USB port. BaseCamp will scan the external memory drives and find the new map, although it may take 20 seconds to find and load it.

Gary France said...

I agree Anon - After reloading the Basecamp route planning software on my computer, I can only see the detailed maps if I plug my unit in via the USB cable. Frustrating, isn't it.

Me! said...

Hi Gary, thanks so much for your excellent article. I've recently bought a victory vision and was so close to buying a Garmin, however they sound totally undeserving so I shall be avoiding them.

I've done a decent amount of cycling and I always use my iPhone with a waterproof case and a handlebar mount, not ideal for a motorbike but it's never let me down and Until I find something more suitable it'll do for me.

Thanks once again,

Geoff

Wow Thinking said...

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